How to get Live to send program change messages to Omnisphere

I've posted this in the Spectrasonics forum, too.

I'm trying to figure out how to get Ableton Live Session View clips to send program change messages to Omnisphere in Omni's Live mode.

I have successfully programmed my AKAI mpd26 to send program change messages and Omni responds as hoped.

However, I'm now in Live's Session View and trying to get the Bank/Sub bank/Program "boxes" filled out correctly so I have Live Mode program change control with my clips. I've tried a bunch of different combinations of those clip box values without getting the straightforward control I want.

I have used Omni's midi learn to set Omni to respond to Program Changes 1 - 8 to select Omni's Live Mode "pads" 1 - 8 using my mpd26. It works perfectly with my mpd26.

I used no most/least significant byte messages.

I used only channel 1A on my mpd26.

How do tell a Live clip to send program change messages with a range of possible values from 1 > 8 from a clip to Omni?

Richard

Hi RIchard,

AFAIK in Live you are limited to sending one program change per clip. You could break them up into smaller clips and then send different PC messages per clip.

Select the clip and in the clip detail view you can adjust the Program changes to send to the MIDI device. I believe these messages are sent before the clip is launched.

Hope that helps
R

I am sending one program change per clip.

Actually, I was doing it as I was watching the MacProvideo tutorial on Omnisphere, doing what the video described segment by segment. Perl is using Logic, I think, but whatever his host is he uses it to send program change messages to Omni which had me wonder how I would do that in Live.

Live's manual is thin on the topic, mainly referring users to the hardware or plug-in's documentation, but each clip has program change values that can be sent. I tried many different values in the program change settings and also many different values in the clip launch settings, too, thinking there may be a connection there, but no success.

I do get some Omni Live mode "pad" changes with my program change messages, with a patch change that lasts a nano second before returning to the original value, but they appear to me almost random.

My efforts to control the patch selection with program change messages from the clip settings descended into near random value selecting; not my goal.

There is something I'm fundamentally missing or Live's clip settings have a limitation in this kind of functionality I'm unaware of.

In Berklee's Advanced Live class I had a similar problem building a "key switched" multi layered instrument using Sampler(s) where sending the appropriate key switching note value from within a clip didn't have the hoped for results and I needed to manually kit a keyboard key to gain my intended results. The instructor seemed surprised by the behavior, too, and couldn't provide a work around.

I may try Ableton tech support with this issue, too.

Richard

Hi Richard,

I see... yes Jonathan Perl is using Logic as his host DAW in the Omni 101.

I'm not going to around Ableton for a little while so can't test this out in person...

Do let me know what you find out from Ableton Support - and I'll see if I can find out any more info in the meantime.

Cheers
Rounik

I spent considerable time communicating with Ableton tech support and on the phone with Spectrasonics tech support to come to my own conclusions. Both companies were very responsive and helpful.

There is a known bug in Live which I believe lies at the basis of these problems. Ableton tech support described the bug and provided a "sort of" workaround which, in my experience, is still subject to the vagaries of the bug, as I mention near the bottom of this.

The description of the bug, as given to me:

"Note: there is a bug currently when starting a clip after the playback has been stopped. In this case Live will not only send the program change information of this clip but also the program change of the last fired clip. This might cause problems when using the MIDI learn mode of Omnisphere. I would suggest to not stop the playback but just enable the MIDI learn functionality for the different cells and start the according clip directly afterwards and continue with the next cell without stopping the playback."

The workaround, in my words (I'm not explaining every step of preparing Omnisphere to display and learn program change messages, but just the critical steps for dealing with this issue):

Create an instance of Omnisphere in Live and then here's what I did:

1) Set up 8 clips with program change values 1 > 8, consecutively in each clip (In my case, bank=none and sub-bank=none).

2) In Live Mode in Omnisphere, I did the MIDI Learn Program Change Value for each of Omni's cells consecutively, firing the 8 clips without ever stopping playback in between any of the MIDI learning "moments".

The "consecutively....without ever stopping playback in between any of the MIDI learning 'moments'" is the critical information.

I didn't bother loading patches into Omni's cells first, either; I did the MIDI Learn on empty cells with no sound patches loaded, which took only a few moments, and figured I'll do the patch loading later.

This also worked "after the fact" for a previous set with patches already loaded where I experienced problems, too.

HOWEVER:

I closed the set and reopened it, which meant that playback had stopped. In my instance, I couldn't get Omni's cell 1 to play; Prog Chg value 1 played cell 2. All the others worked OK. I have no idea why, but I expect it relates directly to the bug. This might mean that the MIDI Learning has to be done again, and maybe again, to retain predictable behavior.

My AKAI mpd26 program change values also behaved the same as Live's clip values, so it appears that a Live clip prog change value x = a mpd26 prog change value x

One other thing, which may or may not be significant:

Changing Omnisphere Live Mode's "Program Change Display Format" Setting from 0-127 to 1-128 altered the program change value displayed in Omnisphere's Live Cells, incrementing or decrementing by 1, depending on which format I started from, which seems inappropriate to me; a program change value of 1 should show up as a 1 on Omni's cell regardless of whether I'm using a 0-127 or 1-128 display format, it would seem to me.

I have no idea what opening and closing the set or stopping and starting playback more often in the in the song development process might do to this, either.

Richard

Hi Richard!

Wow. Thanks for this extensive bug info and workaround. Think this'll be very helpful for other.

Appreciate it :)

Rounik